SUZUKI

[Zaphod]

Just read an interesting interview with Gary Taylor in AMCN.Unfortunately I won't be able to scan it for all to read till I get home on Sat. If someone else can before that, it'd be great.

It's written by Michael Scott, so take it as you will, but.......some of the interesting bits revolve around the effort that his team put into developing (by outsourcing said ideas) stuff that Suzuki took back to Japan and cut up, because they didn't think of it themselves.

1983, carbon composite frame, Taylor saw one of the units run through a bandsaw.

1990, in conjuction with Pro-Drive developed Electronic active suspension. Thrown out by the factory.

1990's, Flow bench.Taylor told to tell the Czech manufacturer "that it was no longer needed"

1992, Shenton shocked when arriving at Suzuki that they didn't have a transitional Dynamometer. Ordered..then put on the back-burner for another 13 years.

late 90's Schwantz tested a fuel injected system developed outside Suzuki Racing dept.........canned.

Perhaps one of the biggest issues surrounded sponsorship....here is what Taylor says of the Telefonica days.

"For a long time we had some really good sponsors, Pepsi, Lucky strike and then Telefonica. It meant that they had senior representitives at races, and they were pretty astute.They could see if things weren't right technically, not least because the riders would delight in telling them."

This put unbearable pressure on the Japanese race track staff.

"In the end we fell out in a fairly major way with Telefonica, because they got frustrated (to use a polite word)in terms of the promises of improvements that never materialised"

Chiefly, the promise came in the form of a letterfrom the board to Telefonica and to the rider Roberts promising that 2003 would bring "the fastest bike on the grid"

"It never even nearly happened. Kenny kept the letter pinned to his fridge, as a joke. From that point on, I think the factory actually breathed a sigh of relief."

There is much more to the article than what I have put here, and I didn't see it as Taylor ragging on Suzuki for his own gain. He says that they are a great company with some fantastic motorcycles.

Given their attitude, I'm surprised they won anything. More credit to that team, Roberts, Beattie and Schwantz than anything Suzuki did.

I'm a Suzuki fan, but the level of commitment to win is shocking. All the development for the above mentioned items was paid for by the team, not Suzuki.

Taylor even had to pay Kanemoto out of his own pocket until Suzuki stopped quibbling about Kanemoto's contract.

Makes Ducati look outstanding by comparison !

[yzr750]

They seem to have been like that forever, even back in the 70's Woods and Sheene used to have their own parts made because the factory wouldn't provide what was needed.

[Gar]

Don't hold your breath for their return either.

Suzuki was the perennial 'almost there' team.

[Zaphod]

I'd only ever heard how obstinate Honda could be in regards to "it's not the bike, it's you" sort of stuff, but Suzuki takes it to another level.If you have minimal budget and staff (30engineers vs Hondas 400), surely you'd swallow your pride and be happy that your "factory" team found ways through their own capital resources to fund development of your machine ?

Taylor highlights that Suzuki is steeped in that very old Japanese culture and tradition that restricts them from using something they didn't think of themselves.

I have to rush off now, but I'll try to type some stuff from the article tonight regarding test sessions, and management.

It really is amazing that they managed to win anything at all.

[Cam D]

Something Suzuki did do (and maybe still do) is help out people developing new machinery. I've had a couple of mates that were building specials for racing, and needed pistons, crankcases, cams... all sorts of things made. They sent the plans to Suzuki, and Suzuki made the parts for them. You had a to wait a little while, but it wasn't too bad, and I'm pretty sure it was a free service. You had to give them feed back on the completed project. It was one way of Suzuki picking up free technology I guess, but it was good for the small outfits.

[Zaphod]

Something similar to that went on with the ASBK Suzuki's. Where they weren't succeeding in WSBK, they were in ASBK. The ASBK bikes ran their own development.

The GP side of things seems downright strange. Taylor mentioned that with X amount of $$ in the budget they were finishing 6th, management decided that if they ran half those $$ they could still expect to finish 8th.

His point, which I think is valid was 6th ? 8th ?........who cares !, if you're not there to win, why bother !

Again, they make Ducati look bloody good. Hell, even Cagiva look good by comparison. Denning, Taylor, Willing, Shenton,Sheene, Schwantz, Beattie and Roberts seem to be the only reason Suzuki ever won anything. Suzuki seemed to be hell bent on shooting themselves.

Taylor hopes they do come back, although with a completely different attitude to GP racing than they used to have.

[TwoStroke Institute]

Erv Kanemoto never worked at Suzuki. I had a quick look at the article and seemed like Suzuki race dept was micro managed by the top brass. What would have been a better read would have been the disintergration of the Maxtra project.

[Gar]

Kanemoto worked with the GP team for a season, early into the 4 stroke era if I remember correctly. I think that he was more or less a consultant.

Roberts Jr. was on the team at the time.

[Zaphod]

Have another read TSI, I think Taylor would know if Erv was there or not.

True to an extent about the micro-management. The problem with that in their case was the Race Managers they employed had no interest or background in racing (save for two, by the article), and were using the race Dept as a managerial stepping stone. Achieving budget was the thing they focussed on.

In the article, one manager they put in place had been in three different factory dept's in short time, and when Taylor asked how long he was planning on being in the Racing Dept, his answer was " As short a time as possible....."

I wonder why their GP bikes were no good.

[Hanuman]

Kanemoto worked with the GP team for a season, early into the 4 stroke era if I remember correctly. I think that he was more or less a consultant.

Roberts Jr. was on the team at the time.

Yep.

http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2004/Kane ... ith+Suzuki

Erv left, Taylor left...in came Denning.

[Dr. Gellar]

This ought to be of interest to some of you....

http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/05/22/spied-2014-suzuki-motogp-prototype/

[Squidpuppet]

This ought to be of interest to some of you....

http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/05/22/spied-2014-suzuki-motogp-prototype/

Cool, thanks.

[Nucci]

Lots of testing happening with Suzuki at the moment. Seems they want to be back on the grid for 2014, but their current development is going 'better than expected' according to a source.

Could 2013 be a possibility? Hmm if they have the readies for a top pilot, the sooner they get in the better. Still, I'd rather they come in and hit the ground running rather than come in a season too early.

[MPA]

I agree, there are definitely some good riders they can sign if they can get it together for '13. They should have a good shot at Rossi if Ducati doesn't get their bike sorted, especially if Honda and Yamaha aren't interested

[Gar]

So the Suzuki is 'almost ready''?

Same as it ever was!

[lennyzrx]

well that's pretty interesting.

the way Ben's been riding the factory M1 this year he may need another opertunity at the end of the season?

I'm sure he still has a few close friends at Suzuki?

Could be quite interesting?

[Cappra]

I agree, there are definitely some good riders they can sign if they can get it together for '13. They should have a good shot at Rossi if Ducati doesn't get their bike sorted, especially if Honda and Yamaha aren't interested

Hilarious in the context of this thread. Vale has already had his reputation left in tatters and damaged his future 'in retirement' earnings by going with a small minimally funded small manufacturer with a troublesome quirky underdeveloped bike, Im sure he would go to a less winning company, with less funding and less hope .

The Duke will be Vale's last MotoGP ride, he has to make it work - no other hope, no other alternative. Ducati has to make it work.

[Squidpuppet]

The Duke will be Vale's last MotoGP ride, he has to make it work - no other hope, no other alternative. Ducati has to make it work.

Livio Suppo says...

LS: When Nakamoto said it wouldn’t be possible he had counted on continuing with Casey and Dani. Casey’s retirement however changes things: Rossi began his career in 500 with Honda, and maybe he could end his career with Honda. It would be a good story.

http://www.twowheelsblog.com/post/10239 ... nice-story

[Cappra]

Just read an interesting interview with Gary Taylor in AMCN.Unfortunately I won't be able to scan it for all to read till I get home on Sat. If someone else can before that, it'd be great.

It's written by Michael Scott, so take it as you will, but.......some of the interesting bits revolve around the effort that his team put into developing (by outsourcing said ideas) stuff that Suzuki took back to Japan and cut up, because they didn't think of it themselves.

1983, carbon composite frame, Taylor saw one of the units run through a bandsaw.

1990, in conjuction with Pro-Drive developed Electronic active suspension. Thrown out by the factory.

1990's, Flow bench.Taylor told to tell the Czech manufacturer "that it was no longer needed"

1992, Shenton shocked when arriving at Suzuki that they didn't have a transitional Dynamometer. Ordered..then put on the back-burner for another 13 years.

late 90's Schwantz tested a fuel injected system developed outside Suzuki Racing dept.........canned.

Perhaps one of the biggest issues surrounded sponsorship....here is what Taylor says of the Telefonica days.

"For a long time we had some really good sponsors, Pepsi, Lucky strike and then Telefonica. It meant that they had senior representitives at races, and they were pretty astute.They could see if things weren't right technically, not least because the riders would delight in telling them."

This put unbearable pressure on the Japanese race track staff.

"In the end we fell out in a fairly major way with Telefonica, because they got frustrated (to use a polite word)in terms of the promises of improvements that never materialised"

Chiefly, the promise came in the form of a letterfrom the board to Telefonica and to the rider Roberts promising that 2003 would bring "the fastest bike on the grid"

"It never even nearly happened. Kenny kept the letter pinned to his fridge, as a joke. From that point on, I think the factory actually breathed a sigh of relief."

There is much more to the article than what I have put here, and I didn't see it as Taylor ragging on Suzuki for his own gain. He says that they are a great company with some fantastic motorcycles.

Given their attitude, I'm surprised they won anything. More credit to that team, Roberts, Beattie and Schwantz than anything Suzuki did.

I'm a Suzuki fan, but the level of commitment to win is shocking. All the development for the above mentioned items was paid for by the team, not Suzuki.

Taylor even had to pay Kanemoto out of his own pocket until Suzuki stopped quibbling about Kanemoto's contract.

Makes Ducati look outstanding by comparison !

Nothing new or surprising here. Every team will have similar 'not invented here' stories. In deed every work place, industry and nation will have 'not invented here' stories and 'how stupid management is' stories. The publishing industry's life blood is publishing 'what ifs' . For the very simple reason the Teams and mechanics have a very narrow view of the realities the company might face. Management generally has a better view and a different mission and aims. Management has to take into consideration, profit, marketability, finances etc etc etc, now and into the projected future.

Of course they will get it wrong and of course there will be missed opportunities. The management has got to be judged 'in the balance'. Considering that Suzuki has been bailed out by VW is the past 10 years it might be a better indicator of missed opportunity etc.

[Cappra]

The Duke will be Vale's last MotoGP ride, he has to make it work - no other hope, no other alternative. Ducati has to make it work.

Livio Suppo says...

LS: When Nakamoto said it wouldn’t be possible he had counted on continuing with Casey and Dani. Casey’s retirement however changes things: Rossi began his career in 500 with Honda, and maybe he could end his career with Honda. It would be a good story.

http://www.twowheelsblog.com/post/10239 ... nice-story

Regardless of impeccable reputations and credentials I'll question everyone's motivations in the 'silly season', a season of information and disinformation, a season of fun and games. I'll back my assertion; The Duke will be Vale's last MotoGP ride, he has to make it work - no other hope, no other alternative. Ducati has to make it work.

[Squidpuppet]

Regardless of impeccable reputations and credentials I'll question everyone's motivations in the 'silly season', a season of information and disinformation, a season of fun and games. I'll back my assertion; The Duke will be Vale's last MotoGP ride, he has to make it work - no other hope, no other alternative. Ducati has to make it work.

Do you believe that no other factory will have him, or that Rossi himself will chose to stick it out at Ducati?

[MiniNinjaMk5]

It's funny, but having read Rossi's biography I thought it far more likely that he would have gone to Suzuki than Ducati. He had originally looked at the latter when he left Honda, but dismissed it because he felt the company 'culture' was too similar to the Japanese company - their particular efforts towards engineering were more engrained, and the oft-repeated Honda quote of 'You will go fast on our bike, and win on it' also applied to Ducati. Indeed, some sources have speculated that this is the case, and is why Rossi is no closer to the front now than he was 12 months ago. Rossi and Burgess' skills of identifying the problem areas of a bike, and making developments to improve it, have not been taken onboard in quite the same manner as they had previously been at Yamaha.

Regarding the OP, I too had heard similar information about Suzuki and their GP efforts. There was a great article in MCN sport about it last month in fact, saying pretty much the same thing, and I must have shaken my head at least half a dozen times while reading it. From my understanding they had a similar structural problem to Kawasaki and (previously) Yamaha - i.e. rather than having a race department (such as HRC for Honda, and Corse for Ducati) which focuses explicitly on getting results in racing, and has funding to achieve that result, they were instead having to report through the extremely ritualised structure and process of the upper management of the company. Obviously, for a company such as Kawasaki (which is massive) this meant that they were too slow to respond to changes, and did not have the focus that a smaller, tightly knit community can bring. While Suzuki are much smaller, I got the impression from the article that they have a similar problem - the management just using the racing department as a stepping stone for instance, and not wanting to upset the applecart.

I still think it was such a shame that Suzuki pulled out this year. Their final GP bike was arguably (perhaps with the exception of the 2007 machine, which would have been a championship contender if one removes Stoner from the equation) the most competitive bike they had made in the 4-stroke era. I would have loved to see another rider pushing Bautista on it, but I think to be truly competitive they needed to change their management structure and the culture of bringing improvements to the bike during a season. They obviously have some talented engineers working for the company, but it seemed seemed clear to me that they were being hamstrung by the 'suits' as it were.

[MPA]

The Duke will be Vale's last MotoGP ride, he has to make it work - no other hope, no other alternative. Ducati has to make it work.

If they can't figure out a way to get him at least on par with the Tech3 bikes I think he'll be gone. Yes, if he bails people will say Rossi couldn't make the Ducati work, but Rossi will say Ducati ignored his input as he's said before, and the fact that only Stoner has had success on the Ducati since '07 helps his case. IMHO, staying with Ducati for another 2 years and possibly doing nothing will hurt his legacy a lot more than leaving after this season

Underfunded or not - last year's Suzuki was probably as good as the Ducati, and Suzuki likely spent a fraction of the money that Ducati spent on development. Plus Rossi brings in sponsorship dollars that Suzuki could spend on development since they seemed unwilling to invest their own during this economic crisis

[Cappra]

Do you believe that no other factory will have him, or that Rossi himself will chose to stick it out at Ducati?

I think it is highly improbably that any other factory will sign Rossi.

I don't think Vale will come cheap and for the probably asking price it is highly improbable that any other factory would have him. For his asking price the factory would want a pretty much cast iron guarantee of the championship and at the moment I think all would have their doubts. A few dry races with some ' fire in the belly' performances, even for 5th or 6th, might change their tune but I doubt it. The other factor is age and age will effect judgment about desire to win and return on expenditure.

I think I have seen some 'fire in the belly' in Rossi recently (for whatever reasons). I'm thinking that Rossi himself has come to realise he has to make it work. Casey's impending retirement may change the equation and his mindset but I think reality is his best future lies with a resurgent Ducati. On the Duke he doesn't have to win a championship he just has to make it a front runner. That is an imperative for Ducati, MotoGP and even Italy. I hope Vale sees it that way and that it will appeal to whatever altruism or patriotism he has in him.

[Oscar]

Reports to hand of sightings of the 2014 (or A 2014) bike up and running.

Now, if Suzuki are looking for successful development, they need a competitive development rider... there's a bloke from not so far away from Japan who just might be interested in the opportunity to go play with a fast bike now and then coming out of contract in 2013 and not intending to race who fits the competitively fast requirement.. but they'd need to provide a teething rusks and playpen allowance..