HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in MGP

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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Oscar on Thu May 24, 2012 1:02 am

TwoStroke Institute wrote:If ever there was a reason to 'engage brain before mouth' Kevin typifies this everytime he feels the need to comment on Casey Stoner.


Sometimes I wonder if Schwantz writes his bits for Soup to a Dean Adams' agenda; I've only ONCE seen a Schwantz piece where he could actually use the word 'won' in a sentence about Stoner (seriously!). When Stoner made the pass on Lorenzo last year at L.S., Schwantz was interviewed immediately and couldn't have praised Stoner more - then a few days later, his '34' column in Soup was pretty much back to the old Schwantz. His piece when Stoner took time off to deal with the lactose intolerance was pretty damn hypocritical for a man who pulled the pin in the middle of a season.

I have great respect for what Schwantz did as a rider but his commentary seems too full of 'look at me, remember me" stuff - far more than any other retired rider that I know about. Stoner has left Schwantz's records in the dust and it seems he doesn't react well to that at all. I'll take Suppo's comment that 'Life is easier if you know how to lie, but that isn't him' as a summary of Stoner than anything Schwantz has to say.

Squidpuppet wrote:Also somewhat surprising to me is that Casey didnt recognize that MotoGP has always been about the money as well as racing. Promoters and track owners have always been in this business to make money. Sponsor have always shelled out the coin to promote their brand and sell more product. Manufacturers have always raced in an effort to sell more bikes. Riders have always wanted to get to the top to make the big bucks. It has always been a business. I'm not sure why Casey feels like it's more about money now than it was 14 years ago.


Fair comment indeed. Stoner was perhaps (indeed probably) extremely naive, and it's hit him hard that it just isn't what he'd hoped for at the top. Who of us hasn't gone through a career path where you start out at the bottom, you progress and the money and responsibility seem sufficient reward for the frustrations, then after a while you find that the only real satisfaction comes from being as good as you can be at your job - and one day you wake up to the fact that the corporation you work for doesn't, in fact, give a shit about that, just that you keep on churning out the results and that nothing you can do will change the nature of the beast you work for? At that point you either: a) settle for turning up, doing the job, going home and finding your satisfaction to combat those frustrations elsewhere, or b) quit and go seek new challenges where the opportunity for satisfaction at least appears to be greater. Whether you are right or wrong about the course you take, at least you are taking a decision to value your spirit and soul above accepting being just a number in someone else's game.

Stoner has opted for plan b), and being Stoner, when asked why, he has answered. OK, he doesn't have the life experience to understand that there's no point in trying to change what you felt was wrong by giving a spray about it; that's hardly unique. Just what - two weeks ago - we had a senior guy in one of the world's biggest banks - a guy earning hugely more than Stoner - quit and lay on a spray that resounded around the financial world - worldwide. It's just human nature, and surely by no means one of the more odious sides of human nature.

Stoner's entire background has not prepared him for dealing with the ravages to the soul that working within a very, very commercial 'system' causes and he's decided to get out. Look around you at the people who've taken 'early retirement' from a high-paid, high-pressure job and gone and done something entirely different. It's so common, we have a syndrome named for it: 'sea-change'. Go out into your community and I'll bet you can find, pretty damn quickly, more than one example of this: the guy who runs the fishing-tackle shop who was a senior partner in some large corporation, the hobby-shop guy who was a senior government official etc. Australia is littered with small vineyards run by people with these sorts of backgrounds - one of my best friends is a prime example, an ex-Qantas senior captain who sodded it off and went back to the farming life where he grew up. Scratch any community (at least in the 'developed' countries where there are sufficiently varied opportunities to allow life above the subsistence level) and you'll find people who have done basically what Stoner has done.

And when you do find these people, judge them as you do Stoner - or vice-versa.
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Oscar on Thu May 24, 2012 1:27 am

Squidpuppet wrote:
WayneG wrote:This article by Mat Oxley gives a good explanation IMO http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/race/ ... in-motogp/


Thanks for the Link wayne.


Well worth the read. It must be perplexing to the 'Stoner-hating' section of the British fans that a British rider is coming out with the most vocal support of the guy! It's nice to see some balance, though (and it's also a bit curious that Stoner's closest 'buddies' in racing are also U.K riders). I wonder if we'll see a bit of a 'Roberts-Ranch' set up on Stoner's farm for U.K riders to train off-season, with snags and kippers side-by-side on the BBQ...
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby SP_won on Thu May 24, 2012 1:43 am

TwoStroke Institute wrote:If ever there was a reason to 'engage brain before mouth' Kevin typifies this everytime he feels the need to comment on Casey Stoner. He's been out of the game for quite some time, and to my knowledge has never ran a team let alone one at GP level. Should heed his own words.


I loved his style on the track, huge balls and commitment, he was a joy to watch, but his obsession with belittling Stoner's achievements (which far outdo his own) makes him come across as a bitter has-been who is hell bent on trying to appear as though he is still relevant in the racing world. Sorry Kev but your bile filled rants are the stuff of crash.net contributors. You should f@ck off back to NASCAR.
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Tourn46 on Thu May 24, 2012 1:47 am

Oscar wrote:It must be perplexing to the 'Stoner-hating' section of the British fans that a British rider is coming out with the most vocal support of the guy!


Why?

Oscar wrote:and it's also a bit curious that Stoner's closest 'buddies' in racing are also U.K riders


Why?

Is there any point to this? What wonderful conclusion are you whimsically fabricating from this? Hitler had friends and supporters too.
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Hanuman on Thu May 24, 2012 2:00 am

Tourn46 wrote:
Is there any point to this? What wonderful conclusion are you whimsically fabricating from this? Hitler had friends and supporters too.


No wonder it's called Godwin's Law and not the Godwin hypothesis.
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Zaphod on Thu May 24, 2012 2:09 am

Well, there a quite a few riders, both current and ex, who could benefit from a public speaking, public relations, decorum and etiquite class tutored by Lawson and Rossi.

I hope this doesn't fuel some massive amount of replies kicking Rossi, from the usual Rossi kickers.

Whatever his faults are, his ability to manipulate the media and people to best serve his own agenda and succed at the side of GP racing that Stoner hates ( not a shot at Stoner, please read in context) is masterful..........Right or wrong

More than ever, modern GP racing is a multi faceted sport, you have to be a good/great rider, and you have to know how to play the PR side of the game to be successful, or at the very least, to make your life easier.


Stoner, a bit like Raikonnen, appears that he couldn't be bothered, or interested in that side of the equation. Who can blame him !?

If he ever did come back, I would like to hope that he signs a contract like Raikonnen has on his return.

I don't do PR, or any of that other crappy stuff. You pay me to drive the car fast, and that's all I want, and am going to do.
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Cam D on Thu May 24, 2012 2:19 am

Hanuman wrote:
Tourn46 wrote:
Is there any point to this? What wonderful conclusion are you whimsically fabricating from this? Hitler had friends and supporters too.


No wonder it's called Godwin's Law and not the Godwin hypothesis.


Thanks Hanuman, I had to google that as I hadn't heard it before.
Intelligent debate about motorcycling? No matter how much you dislike him, Casey could hardly be compared to the Nazi's in anyway. Quite an average comment in my opinion. This part of the explanation certainly applies ....
The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate,
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Oscar on Thu May 24, 2012 3:39 am

Zaphod wrote:I hope this doesn't fuel some massive amount of replies kicking Rossi, from the usual Rossi kickers.

Whatever his faults are, his ability to manipulate the media and people to best serve his own agenda and succed at the side of GP racing that Stoner hates ( not a shot at Stoner, please read in context) is masterful..........Right or wrong


Absolutely right, and it has served motoGp brilliantly as well, to the benefit of all - Rossi has carried the sport to a place it very probably would never have gotten without him, and anyone who denigrates or dismisses that achievement lacks perspective. That does not automatically make those without that ability into bad, or even just lesser, people, however - if riders were to be excluded on the basis of personality rather than riding ability, the class would be a joke..
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Rusty Bucket USA on Thu May 24, 2012 4:51 am

Tourn46 wrote:Why?

Is there any point to this? What wonderful conclusion are you whimsically fabricating from this? Hitler had friends and supporters too.

It is understood, perhaps incorrectly, that Stoner is reviled in the UK. Since you are located there, wouldn't it be far more reasonable to say, "I disagree, and here is my personal (although, likely anecdotal) experience..."?

I'm not sure, in your mind, how far of a leap it would be from Stoner to Hitler, but certainly it must seem excessive, no?
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby yzr750 on Thu May 24, 2012 5:03 am

Rusty Bucket USA wrote:I'm not sure, in your mind, how far of a leap it would be from Stoner to Hitler, but certainly it must seem excessive, no?[/color]


Haha, I'm pretty sure in his mind that Stoner the reincarnation of hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin all rolled in to one evil entity :lol:
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Oscar on Thu May 24, 2012 5:04 am

Rusty Bucket USA wrote:It is understood, perhaps incorrectly, that Stoner is reviled in the UK.


Very evidently not universally, though some would have you believe that. Here's a personal take from a fan who'se just started up a Blog and seems to be trying to make it a quality one: ( http://motogpwipe.com/news/post/2012/05/21/Thoughts-on-Stoners-retirement.aspx )

2007 also happened to be the year when I witnessed, first-hand, the uglier side of MotoGP fans. I was in attendance at Donington that year and I was also in attendance in the crowd at the famous Day of Champions auction. I cannot begin to describe how ashamed I was, both as a Briton and as a MotoGP fan, that a significant proportion of the crowd had the audacity and downright rudeness to very vocally boo Stoner when he was welcomed on stage by Julian Ryder. It was one of the most cringeworthy, appalling things I have ever encountered. It was sickeningly unnecessary, completely shameful and it put a downer on an otherwise fantastic day. I actually got to meet Stoner for the first time, about five minutes after he left the stage that day and I didn't meet an angry, rude Australian boy, I met the most polite, courteous, well-mannered person you could possibly imagine, which only served to make me feel more ashamed of my compatriots. If you were one of the people booing that day, I just want you to know that I think you're a complete dick. If you were one of the people who booed him again when he took the top step of the podium on race day, you're also a dick.


Pretty unequivocal in his feelings, I think. I'd like to see what would happen to someone who did that in the presence of Leon Camier, Chaz Davies, or Cal Crutchlow - actually no, I probably wouldn't, come to think of it.
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby TwoStroke Institute on Thu May 24, 2012 6:08 am

Kroppers mention the UK thing and seemed to all stem from MCN in 07, was full of 'Rossi brilliant second place' on the cover and 'Stoner wins' on pg5. I think they viewed it might impact sales etc etc, that struck a chord with the chavs. Must say that Stoner joining up on twitter made him a few friends even with the tough UK crowd, quite a few saying 'never really like him much but since I have been following his twitter feed, the more I read the more I like him/warm to him' then there is just the 'never liked him and I dunno why' team and the third group (which is only 2 people) who were somehow 'wronged' by Stoner or his father. Common theme with these 2 is when you ask what was so bad the subject changes. Since 2011 the for/against net stuff seems to be 60/40 positive when pre Rossi/Ducati was 90/10 against.
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Oscar on Thu May 24, 2012 8:28 am

TwoStroke Institute wrote:Stoner joining up on twitter made him a few friends even with the tough UK crowd, quite a few saying 'never really like him much but since I have been following his twitter feed, the more I read the more I like him/warm to him'


It's been quite a bit of fun to see the Twitter feeds (and I'm not a Twatterer) and the banter between him and the other riders, his mates in the V8 teams etc. - he has a very ready and rather dry wit. I've also seen some clips from the fishing shows he's done (not that I'm a fishing show fan either, just interested to see how he was out of the racing milieu), and he was relaxed, enthusiastic and happy to be in front of a camera talking about anything but the racing. Some people seem to need a devil to shout against, just to prove to the world their faith in their god because they are insecure about themselves, while others just get on with their life quietly assured about their faith. When Stoner has gone from the scene, someone else will be taken up as the devil, poor bugger.
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Rossifumi on Thu May 24, 2012 9:25 am

Oscar wrote:and it's also a bit curious that Stoner's closest 'buddies' in racing are also U.K riders).

He moved to the UK at the age of 14 to race so not really curious at all, sharing a common language maybe helps too......maybe we should get away from sweeping genralizations about the British.
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Tourn46 on Thu May 24, 2012 9:53 am

Rusty Bucket USA wrote:
Tourn46 wrote:Why?

Is there any point to this? What wonderful conclusion are you whimsically fabricating from this? Hitler had friends and supporters too.

It is understood, perhaps incorrectly, that Stoner is reviled in the UK. Since you are located there, wouldn't it be far more reasonable to say, "I disagree, and here is my personal (although, likely anecdotal) experience..."?

I'm not sure, in your mind, how far of a leap it would be from Stoner to Hitler, but certainly it must seem excessive, no?


I wasn't comparing Stoner to Hitler by any means, but it was to highlight that everyone has friends and fans and why would it be a surprise that a very fast MotoGP rider has some support in the UK?

I would say it's very incorrect that Stoner is "reviled" in the UK... that is far, far more extreme than reality.

I live in he UK, was brought up near Oxford and now live near Aberdeen and not once have I ever personally met a Stoner fan and many of my friends are MotoGP followers. I've been to most British GP's that I can remember (not been since it moved to Silverstone though... rubbish place to watch) so of course I've seen some people waving his flag there.

But this vision of Voodoo Dolls and Pagan Sacrifices to make Stoner fall off or whatever is totally fictional... most people I know are simply indifferent to Stoner... he is just another rider.

I think (and this is my personal opinion) the lack of popularity is largely due to the "British Bulldog" attitude we adopt in the UK, we want to see riders go out there and fight, we want them to come in smiling having enjoyed the fight, if they win then celebrate like there's no tomorrow, if you lose, say how much you enjoyed it anyway and show your determination to win next time.
I believe that in the UK, Stoner's post-race "explanations/reasons" are perceived as passing the buck and excuses... hence the "Moaner"... and that simply fits in with the UK mentality. Perhaps this is hard to appreciate or grasp... but it is probably equally as difficult for "us" to grasp that he's calling a spade a spade or whatever. I remain highly sceptical of his post-race interviews.

For me, there have been one too many comments here that have been condesceding regarding UK fans and Rossi fans, either that their opinions are invalid or hinting that they lack knowledge and can't be true fans of the sport... I'm afraid Oscar's post just stinks of this same notion - there has to be a reason for him saying what he did... it wasn't a simple comment that "Stoner is disliked in the UK". He said it must be perplexing for a section of UK fans and he said it was curious that some of Stoner's closest buddies were from the UK. I wanted to know why he is saying this.

Oscar wrote:Stoner's entire background has not prepared him for dealing with the ravages to the soul that working within a very, very commercial 'system' causes and he's decided to get out.


What exactly is Stoner's background that sheltered him away from understanding a sport he has been involved in since he was 14? I could understand if he'd been running a farm, grafting day in day out, isolated in the middle of nowhere for many moons in a prior life... but he didn't... did he?
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Rossifumi on Thu May 24, 2012 10:35 am

Tourn46 wrote:
I think (and this is my personal opinion) the lack of popularity is largely due to the "British Bulldog" attitude we adopt in the UK, we want to see riders go out there and fight, we want them to come in smiling having enjoyed the fight, if they win then celebrate like there's no tomorrow, if you lose, say how much you enjoyed it anyway and show your determination to win next time.


Again - enough with the generalizations along national lines. Express your own view by all means but keep it to that. I'm British but prefer to say for myself what I like and don't like - I like Max for gawds sake and I don't think he fits your description above!
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Tourn46 on Thu May 24, 2012 10:52 am

Rossifumi wrote:
Tourn46 wrote:
I think (and this is my personal opinion) the lack of popularity is largely due to the "British Bulldog" attitude we adopt in the UK, we want to see riders go out there and fight, we want them to come in smiling having enjoyed the fight, if they win then celebrate like there's no tomorrow, if you lose, say how much you enjoyed it anyway and show your determination to win next time.


Again - enough with the generalizations along national lines. Express your own view by all means but keep it to that. I'm British but prefer to say for myself what I like and don't like - I like Max for gawds sake and I don't think he fits your description above!


If you read again, I stated quite visibly that it was my personal opinion (which I bolded in your quote) as to why perhaps Stoner doesn't receive the praise he perhaps deserves in the UK... by all means I would like to hear your opinion if you are willing to offer it.
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Gustav O on Thu May 24, 2012 10:58 am

My take is that most Brits are w***ers. Imho. ;) :mrgreen:
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Tourn46 on Thu May 24, 2012 10:59 am

Gustav O wrote:My take is that most Brits are w***ers. Imho. ;) :mrgreen:


:lol:

...and you Swedes are barbaric a$$holes :P
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Gustav O on Thu May 24, 2012 11:04 am

Tourn46 wrote: :lol:

...and you Swedes are barbaric a$$holes :P

I can live with that, you have to live with your hairy palms. ;)
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Rossifumi on Thu May 24, 2012 11:19 am

Tourn46 wrote:
Rossifumi wrote:
Tourn46 wrote:
I think (and this is my personal opinion) the lack of popularity is largely due to the "British Bulldog" attitude we adopt in the UK, we want to see riders go out there and fight, we want them to come in smiling having enjoyed the fight, if they win then celebrate like there's no tomorrow, if you lose, say how much you enjoyed it anyway and show your determination to win next time.


Again - enough with the generalizations along national lines. Express your own view by all means but keep it to that. I'm British but prefer to say for myself what I like and don't like - I like Max for gawds sake and I don't think he fits your description above!


If you read again, I stated quite visibly that it was my personal opinion (which I bolded in your quote) as to why perhaps Stoner doesn't receive the praise he perhaps deserves in the UK... by all means I would like to hear your opinion if you are willing to offer it.

It's this I object to:
"the "British Bulldog" attitude we adopt in the UK"
"we want to see riders go out there and fight"
"we want them to come in smiling having enjoyed the fight"

And there are plenty of quarters where Stoner does receive praise in the UK, not least on the BBC coverage.
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby TwoStroke Institute on Thu May 24, 2012 11:29 am

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/ ... cn-may-23/

Just goes on and on , you can see the 'I quit' in inverted commas meaning it was a direct quote, something I have not seen or read about Stoner's announcement of his retirement
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Tourn46 on Thu May 24, 2012 12:42 pm

Rossifumi wrote:It's this I object to:
"the "British Bulldog" attitude we adopt in the UK"
"we want to see riders go out there and fight"
"we want them to come in smiling having enjoyed the fight"

And there are plenty of quarters where Stoner does receive praise in the UK, not least on the BBC coverage.


I don't know what you're arguing about... I have said Stoner has fans here in the UK and I gaves my personal opinion as to a contributing factor as to why there's also many people who don't "get" Stoner in the UK.

I think the "Bulldog" attitude is a fair comment, especially when you look at the tactics and mentality England uses in sports... prime example, Football. It all relies on commitment, effort and dogged determination more than it does ability and technique in comparison to other countries.

I think as a nation we CAN be very old fasioned in our nature and worship the Warrior, but well done to you for being one of those many, many people who are different... I wasn't tring to catch you in my big Nationalist, stereotypical net.
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Cam D on Thu May 24, 2012 12:53 pm

Tourn46 wrote:I think the "Bulldog" attitude is a fair comment, especially when you look at the tactics and mentality England uses in sports... prime example, Football. It all relies on commitment, effort and dogged determination more than it does ability and technique in comparison to other countries.


Absolute rubbish imo. If you believe anyone competing at a world championship level in any sport relies mainly on commitment, effort and dogged determination more than ability and technique then you have absolutely no idea about competing at that level. I have two sons and a young woman that have all ridden internationally for several years at a world championship level, I have also been a mechanic for riders that have gone on to international careers, so I have a reasonable idea of what it takes. You have missed the mark by a mile. It also comes across that you are suggesting Casey is less committed or determined than any British rider that had competed at this level. Just my opinion.
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Re: HRC just tweeted that '12 will be Stoner's last year in

Postby Tourn46 on Thu May 24, 2012 1:16 pm

Cam D wrote:I have two sons and a young woman that have all ridden internationally for several years at a world chapionship level, I have also been a mechanic for riders that have gone on to international careers, so I have a reasonable idea of what it takes. You have missed the mark by a mile. It also comes across that you are suggesting Casey is less committed or determined than any British rider that had competed at this level. Just my opinion.


No no, I'm definitely not saying Casey is any less committed than any other rider, I am saing that his interviews could easily be interpreted as passing the buck over here and I believe that in the UK it's not what a lot of the fans want to see/hear.

In regards to the English football team, watch them play and then watch a nation like Spain play. Anyone can see the 2 spectrums of a physical, bullying approach Vs the technical, skillful approach. To me that is a summation of what a lot of people expect to see.

I am simply saying that the British mentality (not everyone in Britian of course) clashes with Stoner's personality which is why he isn't overly popular here. I'm not having a go at anyone, I am just offering an opinion as to why there's portion of people who aren't fans of his.
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