Marquez

[Hanuman]

I'm finding it hard to see why it is so different here.

Because it's not under brakes?

[tom]

Of course not (don't know if tom is actually so ignorant to all my previous comments to form this conclucion or just in it for the wind-up), his first move inside was the right thing to do. The thing I'm not fine is him continuing to attempt the move to a gap that was always going to close with Marquez always in front of him, when he saw Marquez the whole time (and Marquez didn't).

Think of it this way: the equivalence of this into a slow corner (so the move happens during braking) is the rider behind going for a gap inside and the two bikes colliding at the entry with him having 2/3 of the bike alongside. In this occasion the overtakee almost always loses out and is forced wide losing the place. The reaction to this move is always that the orvertaker didn't get it done fairly, he came in too hot and too late and that it is generally an unfair, dirty if unintentional move.

I'm finding it hard to see why it is so different here.

I'm not winding you up, and I have a much better understanding of where you are coming from now. Correct me if I'm wrong but you agree Pol had every right to be on the inside, its just that he cant stay there if Marquez decides he wants that space? They were essentially side by side however Marquez was slightly in front so you seem to be applying the rule that the rider in front has right of way and the other rider should extract themselves quick-smart. No?

There has been situations where riders take successive corners essentially side by side, swapping the lead several times by a nose. What you are saying is that the rider in front (even if is just by a marginal amount) has the right to take the track and the rider behind must yield and give his track position away?

Diving down the inside into a corner is a legitimate way to overtake. The decision on whether it is fair or not is made on the basis of whether the overtaking rider has simply come into the corner two hot and was never going to make the corner anyway. Obviously Pol can not be accused of that here.

[Rusty Bucket USA]

Well all riders that was asked about it after the race, Lorenzo, Dovi and Pedrosa for example say that it was no fault on Marquez in that incident. Casey made avery strong statement about the penalty and CE II retweeted that same statement.

I reject this. I am generally accepting of Stoner's interpretation of things, but in this case, if he had been in Espargaro's situation (like at, oh I don't know... Jerez last year), he would complaining up a storm about the repeatedly dangerous behavior shown by Marquez.

I also think that it was a clear race incident happening because of what both riders did and those things happen, I just don´t have the energy to argue when we all should agree to disagree. No malice or intent on any part more than racing for the best part of the race track at the same unfortunate moment.

I concede that it is a "racing incident", but the problem is Marquez' behavior pattern of swerving to block. I'm not saying he intended to crash Espargaro, but he has arrived at the point where he doesn't fear the consequences of continuing to do it. Much like Simoncelli at Le Mans last year, he needs a serious warning.

[Gustav O]

I reject this. I am generally accepting of Stoner's interpretation of things, but in this case, if he had been in Espargaro's situation (like at, oh I don't know... Jerez last year), he would complaining up a storm about the repeatedly dangerous behavior shown by Marquez.

That might be the case but that is just speculation. The riders that have commented has said that Marquez was not at fault, while they point out that he was at Qatar. I think that says a lot about the situation.

I concede that it is a "racing incident", but the problem is Marquez' behavior pattern of swerving to block. I'm not saying he intended to crash Espargaro, but he has arrived at the point where he doesn't fear the consequences of continuing to do it. Much like Simoncelli at Le Mans last year, he needs a serious warning.

I agree that Marquez is a rider who is close to and over the edge a little too often but the problem is that penalizing a rider for a race incident based on other moves that you don´t penalize him for is just wrong. Penalties has to be given when appropriate to have the right effect.

[coyote]

From what I am reading in this post, if we could just send these photos to the riders in question prior to the incident they could easily have avoided the whole thing!

[coyote]

I'm finding it hard to see why it is so different here.

Because it's not under brakes?

And why does that make a difference determining who's at fault in your opinion?

[coyote]

I reject this. I am generally accepting of Stoner's interpretation of things, but in this case, if he had been in Espargaro's situation (like at, oh I don't know... Jerez last year), he would complaining up a storm about the repeatedly dangerous behavior shown by Marquez.

This is what really bugs me. Stoner has received a reputation for speaking his mind in every situation, anytime, anywhere, to a fault. I'm very sure Rusty Bucket and many other here appreciates him for that. Then to turn around and tell us that he doesn't know what he's talking about, is self-serving etc etc., when it doesn't suit the POV, is...

annoying

[coyote]

I'm not winding you up, and I have a much better understanding of where you are coming from now. Correct me if I'm wrong but you agree Pol had every right to be on the inside, its just that he cant stay there if Marquez decides he wants that space? They were essentially side by side however Marquez was slightly in front so you seem to be applying the rule that the rider in front has right of way and the other rider should extract themselves quick-smart. No?

Yes, and yes. Marquez is on the racing line slightly ahead so he has the right to the corner (important factor: only Espargaro had the full undrestanding of the situation).

There has been situations where riders take successive corners essentially side by side, swapping the lead several times by a nose. What you are saying is that the rider in front (even if is just by a marginal amount) has the right to take the track and the rider behind must yield and give his track position away?

Those are exceptional circumstances and it doesn't apply here, bc obviously both riders need to be aware of each other to take those corners side by side. So of course I'm not saying what you're suggesting.

Diving down the inside into a corner is a legitimate way to overtake. The decision on whether it is fair or not is made on the basis of whether the overtaking rider has simply come into the corner two hot and was never going to make the corner anyway. Obviously Pol can not be accused of that here.

I don't think it's too important and just for comparing lets leave the "hotness" out. The overtaker arrives to the corner and has 2/3 of his bike alongside on the entry where they collide, the overtakee was completely unaware of this and turned in normally, loses out and goes wide. I think that's overtakers "fault" in all cases, a somewhat dirty/excessively hard move, of course not something that should be given a penalty of.

Gibernau/Rossi Jerez 2005 for example, although not a perfect example bc I'm sure Gibernau knew perfectly where Rossi was and that he would send one up the inside. But analyzing purely at the actions and positions when colliding, Rossi would be at fault.

[Hanuman]

I'm finding it hard to see why it is so different here.

Because it's not under brakes?

And why does that make a difference determining who's at fault in your opinion?

If, as you say, the solution to the Pol/Marc incident is for Pol to have backed off...how do you back off on a banzai braking effort up the inside...Squeeze harder?
But that's beside the point, the analogy isn't bad. I mark this one down as a racing incident. But I am not impressed by Marc's carelessness/seeming lack of awareness. Sepang '11 still sits in my mind.

[Rossifumi]

I reject this. I am generally accepting of Stoner's interpretation of things, but in this case, if he had been in Espargaro's situation (like at, oh I don't know... Jerez last year), he would complaining up a storm about the repeatedly dangerous behavior shown by Marquez.

That might be the case but that is just speculation. The riders that have commented has said that Marquez was not at fault, while they point out that he was at Qatar. I think that says a lot about the situation.

I concede that it is a "racing incident", but the problem is Marquez' behavior pattern of swerving to block. I'm not saying he intended to crash Espargaro, but he has arrived at the point where he doesn't fear the consequences of continuing to do it. Much like Simoncelli at Le Mans last year, he needs a serious warning.

I agree that Marquez is a rider who is close to and over the edge a little too often but the problem is that penalizing a rider for a race incident based on other moves that you don´t penalize him for is just wrong. Penalties has to be given when appropriate to have the right effect.

This is Pedrosa on the incident:

"...when Jorge passed me [at that turn] it was a little different, but almost the same,” said Pedrosa. “I ran a little wide. I knew I left the door open. I didn't know if he was there, but I couldn't come back like no-one was there just in case.

Maybe, yes, Pol was a little behind at that moment, but also Marquez has to be aware that if you leave the door open someone can get in"

And I have to agree with Rusty on Stoner - Stoner was also very vocal about Rossi's moves at LS '08.

[tom]

...Correct me if I'm wrong but you agree Pol had every right to be on the inside, its just that he cant stay there if Marquez decides he wants that space? They were essentially side by side however Marquez was slightly in front so you seem to be applying the rule that the rider in front has right of way and the other rider should extract themselves quick-smart. No?

Yes, and yes. Marquez is on the racing line slightly ahead so he has the right to the corner (important factor: only Espargaro had the full undrestanding of the situation).

But there is no rule like that. They may have something like that in car racing with the B pilar rule of thumb but there is nothing like that in bike racing and you would destroy the racing if you tried to implement it. If a rider leaves he door open the guy behind is perfectly entitled to take the opportunity, that's just racing. You would eliminate 9 tents of the passing if that rule was applied.

Pol hugged the inside of the track getting alongside Marc safely leaving heaps of room. He was alongside an irrespective of whether he was 200mm in front or 200mm behind, it was not a case of running up the back of another rider, he was completely faultless in this incident.

Riders battling for position must leave room for the other guy.

[JanBros]

you haven't brought anything else to the discussion but your confrontative attitude so that's for the better.

nothing new

- what about the going at where you are looking point ?
- what about the noise the bikes make and being able to determine others positions because of that ? I have done some racing myself, and as Japhrodisiac confirms : you definitly know where others are simply by hearing them, especialy when bikes make som much noise like in GP's

you didn't respond to those, probably because they don't fit in your point of vieuw. all you do is repeating your same arguments.

Yes, and yes. Marquez is on the racing line slightly ahead so he has the right to the corner (important factor: only Espargaro had the full undrestanding of the situation).

you presume that this is a fact... I'm not gonna ask you why because you've said so a 100 times. All I'm saying there is more chances of your "important factor" being wrong then right.

There has been situations where riders take successive corners essentially side by side, swapping the lead several times by a nose. What you are saying is that the rider in front (even if is just by a marginal amount) has the right to take the track and the rider behind must yield and give his track position away?

Those are exceptional circumstances and it doesn't apply here, bc obviously both riders need to be aware of each other to take those corners side by side. So of course I'm not saying what you're suggesting.

while I agree these are exceptional circumstances in MotoGP, they definitly are not in 125's, WSBK, WSSP, Moto2, ...
and again your "holy" argument that MM didn't know Pol was in his very close viscinity. Pol was there for laps and laps and laps. Surely Marc knew Pol would jump in the hole he created by goind wide, he would do the same thing if it were the other way round.

[gixxerwimp]

Maybe this will help with the discussion (or not ... ). I overlayed all of the screen caps from the helicopter shot posted by WayneG, marked the front tire contact patches with a red crosses and connected the dots. Was going to do it for all 4 bikes, but that got too messy. Blue is Espargaro and green is Marquez (obviously). You can't see the bikes clearly with all the layers flattened, but I marked the positions looking at each layer individually. Check the PSD file if you want to confirm my work.

Small version:


Full size jpeg:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5542631/Composite3.jpg

Photoshop PSD file if you feel like playing around with it:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5542631/Composite3.psd

Edit: I looked at it a bit more closely and thought it might be interesting to compare Marquez' line with Luthi's (black). Seems that MM goes wide by over a meter, gets back on line pretty quickly, then tightens up to the inside of Luthi's line, and then ... WHAMMO!!!
Small version:


Full size jpeg:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5542631/Composite4.jpg

[Cam D]

That's a lot of work! Well done. Interesting viewing and seems to me to make Marc look a little over aggressive. A bit like he was playing chicken and expected Pol to shut down.

Thanks

[Gustav O]

That's a lot of work! Well done. Interesting viewing and seems to me to make Marc look a little over aggressive. A bit like he was playing chicken and expected Pol to shut down.

Thanks

Agree on the amount of impressive work but the conclusion you make is just specualtion and based on the assumption that MM knows exactly where PE is.
Clearly MM is on or very close to his usual line in that corner and PE is more off the usual racing line.
To me this clarifies that the accident happens because of BOTH riders actions the instant MM gets his slide and it is a race incident.

[Japhrodisiac]

A lot of arguments both ways, but not a lot of mention of the fact that Marquez lost the front - he recovered from a slide that put him off line. Does he have no responsibility to re-enter the racing line in a safe manner? His quick recovery to me doesn't make up for the fact that he was out of control of the bike for a moment and went wide. It doesn't allow him to simply take any piece of track that he likes.

Further to that point - seeing Marquez' error - Pol goes for the opening. Is he supposed to assume that Marquez will recover quickly then immediately veer straight back to the left curbing? I don't think that is a fair assumption either.

[gixxerwimp]

I think one could reasonably expect Marc to at least sense (sight or sound) that Pol was there at this point. He's hanging way off and looking towards the next corner so his head would have been turned slightly towards Pol.

But this is only 0.6 seconds before impact. Is that enough time to adjust one's line?

He starts to visibly pick up his bike here, which I'm guessing is around 0.2 seconds before impact.

And the preparation for ramming described earlier looks more like a reflex action when he finally realizes that Pol is there.

So I guess I believe him when he says he didn't see Pol. But I think he should have expected him and checked before tightening his line.

Edit: Here's Marc bracing for impact viewed from the front.

[Grahluk]

Gixxerwimp's photoshop excellently shows the lines of the incident. Even with MM93's save he remains on a viable racing line if not his originally intended one. Pol clearly hugs a tighter line than the others presumably to move away & around a rapidly slowing & momentarily out of control Marc and of course to take advantage of that moment. Nothing wrong with Marc's line & to my eyes he was shooting for that late apex & was genuinely surprised by Pol's sudden appearance. Both riders, actions were fair in isolation. The part that marks Marc as recklessly ignorant or racing with bloody minded tunnel vision is that when he entered the corner he was right on Luthi's rear wheel after being passed. At the moment Pol appears alongside him Marc had lost 9 or more bike lengths from Luthi in that corner. Experience or intelligence would have him know that any riders behind in the same group would be coming through that corner at race pace which he scrubbed off in his save. As Dani pointed out in that situation you can't just close all possible following lines by running to the inside curb as Marc did. A racing incident to be sure. Neither rider rode dirty but Marc once again showed that he sometimes rides like a complete bonehead. Hopefully he reviews these incidents & sees how he often rides in a way that contributes to these incidents or they will continue to dog him. My prediction for the season if he carries on like this is not a championship but finding him sitting out a race or two after being DQ'd in the next incident.

[ieism]

Race Evil Penalties Shall be Overthrown Later
In this case I think he didn't want to take out Pol on purpose, but i'm not that impressed by his race ethics so far.

[Squidpuppet]

So you have no idea from when on Marquez saw Espargaro but still Marquez had sufficient time to avoid him? How does that make any sense? In my scenario (the one I believe in) he had milliseconds to make those adjustments, in other words not even close to enough.

A question: If riders are racing each other, they never have an obligation to slow down in any situation?

Marc had a choice, brace for impact, or avoid impact. He chose impact. We have seen that pass made a thousand times where the guy on the outside notices the inside guy and simply stands the bike up a little. Thousands of times. It's called clean racing.

[Squidpuppet]

That might be the case but that is just speculation. The riders that have commented has said that Marquez was not at fault, while they point out that he was at Qatar. I think that says a lot about the situation..

Dani came right out and clearly said that Marc should have known Pol was there.

Stoners comment could need some expansion for it to be clear. He said he has seen much worse moves. Did he mean from Marc, or all riders in general? We dont know because he wasnt clear. I took his comment as more of a slap at Race Direction for their choice of incidents to apply the penalty, rather than a statement of Marcs innocence. Kind of like, "Of all the shit Marc has pulled, you guys pick THIS one for a penalty?" We cant be sure though.

[Gustav O]

Regarding Caseys comment I think he meant both.
Marquez was not guilty of anything punishable and the race direction made a poor choice by penalizing this move and not other mives, irrelevant of rider. But I am just speculating here.

[Squidpuppet]

Race Evil Penalties $hall be Overthrown Later

Fixed

[coyote]

If, as you say, the solution to the Pol/Marc incident is for Pol to have backed off...how do you back off on a banzai braking effort up the inside...Squeeze harder?
But that's beside the point, the analogy isn't bad. I mark this one down as a racing incident. But I am not impressed by Marc's carelessness/seeming lack of awareness. Sepang '11 still sits in my mind.

The example was made just to consider who's at fault, not whether it's possible to avoid the incident. And yes, it's a racing incident at the end of the day.

[coyote]

...Correct me if I'm wrong but you agree Pol had every right to be on the inside, its just that he cant stay there if Marquez decides he wants that space? They were essentially side by side however Marquez was slightly in front so you seem to be applying the rule that the rider in front has right of way and the other rider should extract themselves quick-smart. No?

Yes, and yes. Marquez is on the racing line slightly ahead so he has the right to the corner (important factor: only Espargaro had the full undrestanding of the situation).

But there is no rule like that. They may have something like that in car racing with the B pilar rule of thumb but there is nothing like that in bike racing and you would destroy the racing if you tried to implement it. If a rider leaves he door open the guy behind is perfectly entitled to take the opportunity, that's just racing. You would eliminate 9 tents of the passing if that rule was applied.

Pol hugged the inside of the track getting alongside Marc safely leaving heaps of room. He was alongside an irrespective of whether he was 200mm in front or 200mm behind, it was not a case of running up the back of another rider, he was completely faultless in this incident.

Riders battling for position must leave room for the other guy.

I don't think there need to be a rule to state that you should rather slow down than go to a disappearing gap. When these guys race there will be "grey" situations where you need to use your head and acknowledge the situation, not stubbornly keep up your right to a position/space. It's unavoidable really.