CRT - The new prototypes

[phoenix1]

Re: Ilmor X3 engine

When I said that Ilmor built F1 engines, I meant that they have the technical sophistication to build something that is mechanically superior to a WSBK engine. Since the X3 turned up with pneumatic vavles, we can say conclusively that Ilmor have the ability to engineer well-beyond the confines of WSBK production equipment. The same can be said for Oral, who also have a bit of F1 experience and sports car prototype experience.

Furthermore, I reject the premise that the Ilmor engine is not a match for WSBK engines, based on the X3's performance against 990cc prototypes. As Rats alluded, the premise is bunk.

WSBK have economic restrictions and design restrictions that prototype designers do not consider. The Aprilia would probably be the only match for a bespoke customer engine, but Aprilia's 3mm bore deficit leaves an opportunity for another company to outperform them. The Yamaha is probably a good CRT engine as well, but Yamaha are not offering WSBK kit.

[TwoStroke Institute]

Nothing is debunked or disproved the Illmor X8 was a poorly executed POS. Was NEVER in front of any 990's except for GP rookie James Ellison's Tech 3 Yamaha for a couple of laps at the start at Estoril, it might have looked like it was at Estoril through it's frequent trips to the pit box. Reality is it completed 11 race laps(after you enter the pits ,subsequent laps don't count though they are timed) in 2 GP's.QP Lap times were not far off but average lap speed and top speeds were miles down

http://resources.motogp.com/files/resul ... 1_96143780
http://resources.motogp.com/files/resul ... 1_96143780

[Gustav O]

Aspar Team has showed their Aprilia ARTs in full race trim at Aragon. Looks good and you can see the difference to the WSBK machine with different fairing, modified frame etc.

[Cam D]

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/179726 ... otogp.html
This is pretty cool! Anyone willing to bet on who rides it?

The FIM recently announced that wild-card MotoGP entries will be allowed a generous three engines per event, compared with six per season for each full time prototype rider and twelve per season for CRT riders.
Attack Performance has already announced that it will enter both American rounds, at Laguna Seca from July 27-29 and Indianapolis from August 17-19.

How many wild card entries is one team allowed every year? Can these guys have unlimited testing at the tracks they have nominated to race on?

.

[dave_m]

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/179726/1/suzuki-powered_crt_for_indy_motogp.html
This is pretty cool! Anyone willing to bet on who rides it?

The FIM recently announced that wild-card MotoGP entries will be allowed a generous three engines per event, compared with six per season for each full time prototype rider and twelve per season for CRT riders.
Attack Performance has already announced that it will enter both American rounds, at Laguna Seca from July 27-29 and Indianapolis from August 17-19.

How many wild card entries is one team allowed every year? Can these guys have unlimited testing at the tracks they have nominated to race on?

I'm a fan of local wild card rides for sure, so it'll be interesting to see how successful these attempts are. Three engines sounds about right to encourage them to show up knowing a blown engine won't necessarily ruin their weekend. (It won't be good, but it won't sideline them.) I don't know if the testing is unlimited, but I'm pretty sure I remember GPTech doing a moto2 wild card entry and having Jason DiSalvo do some testing before the race weekend.

[Nachlauf]

This is worded really strange. They seem to imply, that the 3 engine rule only applies to a wild card given to a CRT entry. But they don't specifically say so. What if the former Suzuki MotoGP team, that was reported to be preparing to enter again wanted to test their new prototype? Could they get such a wild card and test their new bike for example at Motegi?

[Kropotkin]

This is worded really strange. They seem to imply, that the 3 engine rule only applies to a wild card given to a CRT entry. But they don't specifically say so. What if the former Suzuki MotoGP team, that was reported to be preparing to enter again wanted to test their new prototype? Could they get such a wild card and test their new bike for example at Motegi?

They could. The rules do not specify prototypes or CRT.

[Nachlauf]

Interesting, thanks again.

[Kropotkin]

Interesting, thanks again.

Very well spotted, though. It is interesting indeed.

[RatsMC]

I saw this a week ago or something and was excited as hell about it.


I have to say that the rules developed recently have had a really interesting and hopeful -and seemingly intentional - lack of precision. They seem to open more possibilities rather than remove them. This is a radical departure from the direction taken in the 4-stroke era.

[Oscar]

I have to say that the rules developed recently have had a really interesting and hopeful -and seemingly intentional - lack of precision. They seem to open more possibilities rather than remove them. This is a radical departure from the direction taken in the 4-stroke era.

More evidence perhaps that Dorna and the FIM are trying to diminish the influence of the MSMA? More 'lack of precision' tends to allow greater flexibility in approach to problem-solving, and that encourages innovation outside of the 'commercial application' box. Interesting times...

[Domino]

I wonder why Carmelo doesn't allow the CRT's to use forced induction...

[Squidpuppet]

On After The Flag at MotoGP.com for the Catalunya round, Gavin asked this weeks guest, Danilo Petrucci, what it was like coming to the premier class. He said it was like a dream and his goal was to be there for many years and to ride a real MotoGP bike, NOT a CRT.

[dave_m]

On After The Flag at MotoGP.com for the Catalunya round, Gavin asked this weeks guest, Danilo Petrucci, what it was like coming to the premier class. He said it was like a dream and his goal was to be there for many years and to ride a real MotoGP bike, NOT a CRT.

I'm pretty sure the "real" comment means competitive more than anything else. If the ART bikes were beating the satellite bikes, the difference wouldn't really matter anymore.

[Squidpuppet]

I'm pretty sure the "real" comment means competitive more than anything else. If the ART bikes were beating the satellite bikes, the difference wouldn't really matter anymore.

*shrug* Just thought it was interesting, for a number of reasons, that he said specifically "Not a CRT"

[dave_m]

I don't think any rider wants to be 3 or 4 seconds off the pace regardless of what they do, so until the CRT bridge that gap, I don't expect that attitude to change. I just think the CRT designation won't matter anymore when they are competitive. Keep in mind Petrucci is the one giving up more than 30KPH down the straight at Catalunya, he has by far the worst engine of the CRT bikes.

Speaking of how competitive the CRT bikes are, Catalunya was dry all weekend and gave us a little idea of how the CRT projects are going. It's interesting there were 3 CRT manufacturers among the top 4 CRT finishers, all within 5 seconds of each other, so no CRT bikes are breaking away from the others yet. The CRT riders are still having a lot of DNFs, but it's starting to look like they are making progress towards the satellite bikes over the past 5 races. I was a little surprised they couldn't get closer in the rain at LeMans, and that their best finish so far is still 11th. I wonder how much is due to the fact that while it may be a cheap way to put a bike on the grid, making it competitive still is more expensive. Or do they just need more time, regardless of budget?

Catalunya has a longer straight than LeMans, but the top speed differences were about the same in the dry. Does anyone have any comparisons between WSBK top speeds and CRT top speeds at the same tracks?

[Squidpuppet]

Or do they just need more time, regardless of budget?

I reckon both. It's a big jump from zero to the premier class. Helluva a battle.

I look at Ducati to try to keep things in perspective. An established team and factory that have been together for years, a motor that makes "too much" power, top flight riders, and they are still struggling to find that last little something to put it all together.

[Cam D]

I'm pretty sure the "real" comment means competitive more than anything else. If the ART bikes were beating the satellite bikes, the difference wouldn't really matter anymore.

*shrug* Just thought it was interesting, for a number of reasons, that he said specifically "Not a CRT"

Nakamoto seems to segregate them but genuine prototype or not:

Q: What do you think of Suzuki new MotoGP machine? Is it something in middle of CRT and prototype?

N:?It is genuine prototype. It looks like GSXR so that it would promote the sales of production bike, but it is genuine prototype MotoGP bike.

Read more: http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/20120 ... z1xFBHgJ1e

[MiniNinjaMk5]

That was a really interesting link, thanks for posting it!

[uppili]

Hello Folks!

Posting for the first time here! Have been following the forum keenly for a while though.

With regards to the interview by Nakamoto san being discussed here, one thing really caught my attention and i quote it.

"I think true performance of CRT is higher than what we see now. We would like to prove that......If Honda makes a CRT bike, it will surely be one second faster than a Moto2"

Read more: http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/20120 ... leave.html

Reading between the lines, doesn't it sound like Honda are interested/working on selling a well developed CRT package similar to the ART's next season? It would be interesting to see if they can make a CRT based on their fireblade which is within 1 second of their Honda Proto. That might bring more credibility to the CRT concept and also will be a hell of a lot cheaper than leasing prototypes for the satellite teams. Might even make for a stronger grid of bikes.

Any thoughts?

[Faster1]

uppili - welcome

IMO as long as Honda is winning the "big": prize, a CRT is a non-project.,, Not without sponsor dollars pulling the load. Or they be pulling dollars/resources from, WSBK ??, , and that won't sell bikes.

[yzr750]

Interesting comment on Aussie coverage last night, they said the Aprilia runners weren't happy about the amount of power their engines had, apparently they are producing considerably less than the WSB motors.

[Squidpuppet]

Interesting comment on Aussie coverage last night, they said the Aprilia runners weren't happy about the amount of power their engines had, apparently they are producing considerably less than the WSB motors.

Does WSBK have an engine limit for the season?

[Gustav O]

Does WSBK have an engine limit for the season?

No, and that is the big difference. In CRT they are limited to 12 engines but in WSBK they can change engine as many times as they like - talk sabout Biaggi using more than 40 engines last year.

[Squidpuppet]

Does WSBK have an engine limit for the season?

No, and that is the big difference. In CRT they are limited to 12 engines but in WSBK they can change engine as many times as they like - talk sabout Biaggi using more than 40 engines last year.

Thanks Gustav. That was my suspicion and why I asked. So we'll never see fast CRTs unless they spend a jillion dollars just like the factories.