2012 Round 8 Sachsenring Race Topic ***Spoilers***

[Cam D]

The wet weather tyres are amazing....

[Cam D]

Goodbye MotoGP....

[Cam D]

A great shot that is a typical riding position of Dani coming off a turn. Beautiful!

[Cam D]

[Cam D]

[RatsMC]

Or fit an electric starter! ... cuts out the possibility of any perceived favouritism and has to be a lot safer.

There is a lot to this. It gets bandied about every once in a while, but it should be taken more seriously. It has a direct application to road bikes, and it's a really easy way to force the bikes to gain a few kg's. Then, they can make more sensitive kill switches that can be quickly reset by a rider who isn't injured in a crash.

And they can run bank-angle sensors all the time preventing what happened at Assen.

[Squidpuppet]

Interesting pic of Ben. I didn't realise the track had that much banking at any point. Looks quite steep but it may be the pic.

Thats Jorge.

[HAWAIIAN MAN]

It seems stange that everyone here is formulating possible solutions to Stoners so called dilema in Germany, from adding batteries to making new rules? Why? The particular track in question as with most I would imagine already have proto-call on this subject. Race Direction states that if a bike goes down at dangerous part of the track they will remove it immediately and the rider will not be permitted to receive any help to restart the motorcycle.

It seems they have everything covered so why discuss implementing batteries, or changing the rules? If Stoner wanted help starting his motorcycle after he crashed, then he should have tried passing Pedrosa in another part of the circuit, that way if he crashed the Marshals could have helped him.

I like the guy, hes one hell of a rider but get a grip bud!

[Cam D]

Interesting pic of Ben. I didn't realise the track had that much banking at any point. Looks quite steep but it may be the pic.

Thats Jorge.

oooops! Fixed

[Squidpuppet]

It seems they have everything covered

Aloha new guy.

It seems that at many tracks, the "rules" are not as clear regarding which corners are safe or not. And even in corners that are deemed safe, its still a judgement call by the Marshall on who they will or will not help. A black and white rule would eliminate any opportunity for the marshall to aid or not aid a rider based on their personal bias.

[HAWAIIAN MAN]

It seems they have everything covered

Aloha new guy.

It seems that at many tracks, the "rules" are not as clear regarding which corners are safe or not. And even in corners that are deemed safe, its still a judgement call by the Marshall on who they will or will not help. A black and white rule would eliminate any opportunity for the marshall to aid or not aid a rider based on their personal bias.

Mahalo Squidpuppet!

Sure I suppose, but at that level these guys know which corners Race Direction will allow them help restarting. I mean even at the club level you know which corners you want to get up quick and get out of the way, just in case. These guys aren't dumb they know but I guess if it's not clear to the riders(?) they should make a black and white rule. However to add a battery to the bikes that's just not Grandprix if you ask me. I'll be happy to see Casey retire it's always a soap oprea with that guy. Just my two.

[MiniNinjaMk5]

It seems they have everything covered

Aloha new guy.

It seems that at many tracks, the "rules" are not as clear regarding which corners are safe or not. And even in corners that are deemed safe, its still a judgement call by the Marshall on who they will or will not help. A black and white rule would eliminate any opportunity for the marshall to aid or not aid a rider based on their personal bias.

Well that's the thing, I heard that the marshalls on the last 2 corners had been told not to allow any to restart, hence why Stoner's bike was immediately moved to the trackside wall. Although I'm not sure if any other rider fell at that part of the track, over the weekend, that could corroborate it?

And has anyone really said that it was because of 'bias' and because the marshalls might not like Stoner?!

[Gar]

And has anyone really said that it was because of 'bias' and because the marshalls might not like Stoner?!

Some toothy little Aussie dude did!

[tz250w]

These guys aren't dumb they know but I guess if it's not clear to the riders(?) they should make a black and white rule. However to add a battery to the bikes that's just not Grandprix if you ask me.

Well, since I'm one of the guys that mentioned batteries (starters) I'll reply to this.

But first, welcome to the forum... from another noob.


I'm about as "elitist" as you can get when it comes to GP. I'm also an old former racer that was racing back when we still did dead engine starts. We got rid of those for a reason, it was inherently dangerous to have people on track pushing motorcycles while others are coming past. A lot of good riders got seriously injured or worse because of that.

During the two stroke era, there really was no need. The bikes were relatively easy to bump start and did not require several people to push them. Just the rider in most cases (unless it was an uphill section). When the MotoGP thing started, that all changed. The early 990s were nearly impossible to start alone. I watched Ukawa highside at the "gyaku-bank" (off camber) corner just before Dunlop at the inaugural MotoGP at Suzuka. It was right in front of where I was standing, he tried in vain but there was no way he was going to get it going again. The bike itself was not heavily damaged, it just basically flung him over the bars and fell over.

In that same race, John Hopkins (GP debut) dropped his 500 several times and still managed to restart and finish in the points.

Fast forward to now. All the bikes are four strokes. While the Moto2 600s are still running "production" engines, they're probably still the easiest to push start simply because of their capacity and inline four layout. The 1000s, while better than the early 990s are still too much for most riders to handle themselves. And interestingly enough, the ones that used to be the easiest to get going again when they were 125s... the Moto3 bikes are now the hardest to (hot) start. They're also the ones that will be dropped most and least damaged on average.

If riders are going to be allowed to re-enter a race (as I believe they should be, as long as it's able to be done safely), they need to get going quickly. That's not going to happen when you need several people pushing you.

With all the other electronic gizmos on these bikes, a lightweight (perhaps from the radio control industry) battery and starter cell are the least of my worries about being "not Grandprix".


Also, as I mentioned earlier. A guy stalled on the grid, as happened in the last supersport race at Aragon, is the type of accident that could possibly be avoided if this was introduced. Granted, the guy held his hand up, the starting official should have delayed the start and even if he had a starter attached it may not have even gotten the engine going again depending on why it died... but then again, it might have. Two bikes could have still been in the race, two riders would have been uninjured and the race itself wouldn't have been red flagged.


What we don't need is a gaggle of marshals risking their lives, and the lives of others push starting bikes on the track.


But I don't think we should exclude possible re-starts altogether either.

[Hanuman]

With all the other electronic gizmos on these bikes, a lightweight (perhaps from the radio control industry) battery and starter cell are the least of my worries about being "not Grandprix".

What we don't need is a gaggle of marshals risking their lives, and the lives of others push starting bikes on the track.

But I don't think we should exclude possible re-starts altogether either.

Agree with all that. The only head scratcher I have (and I haven't thought too deeply about it) is where to mount the starter? One, it'd make the clutch wider and two, the current stacked gearbox layouts wouldn't make it easy. So probably a new engine architecture to fit it in.

[tz250w]

Well, the Moto2 bikes should be easy enough.

I doubt they'd need something as robust as a street going rig. Just something that's good for a few cranks per charge. Yes, it would require a redesign but hey, that's what prototypes are for after all!

They can still use the ramp / roller bump starter thingies in the pits, to save wear and tear on it.

Also, speaking of batteries... it's not like these bikes don't already have one or eleven on them to power all the gadgets. They might be able to consolidate them a bit. I had a NiCad pack on my old TZ for the YPVS system. What they'd need for a starter would probably weigh half of that today.

[eddahenry]

I was baffled after seeing points go buy buy due to the inability to restart the techs at Honda didn't go "oh 4kg I bet I can design a 1 shot starter for about that weight" when they herd of the increase in minimum weight

[Hanuman]

I was baffled after seeing points go buy buy due to the inability to restart the techs at Honda didn't go "oh 4kg I bet I can design a 1 shot starter for about that weight" when they herd of the increase in minimum weight

Again, I agree with the sentiment.
But there's a lot to move about to fit a starter, so it's something you'd want to consider from the outset, not as an add-on. (which is also proabably why they were annoyed with the late change - "You mean I worked for months shaving 50g off that camshaft for nothing??")
As an engine designer, would you really want to stuff about with your Soopa-DoopdaTM clutch to stick a sprag on it? Move about an already optimised gearbox shaft to make room for a 'leccy motor? tell the frame designer to chop out his frame a bit? Not unless it was really high on the design brief...which it is unlikely ever to be...

I'd go back to the original suggestion, ban assistance - that might be grounds to motivate the change....though I doubt it.

[gco0307]

With regards to the 'bike restart situation', IMO any rule, be that official or unofficial must be applied in blanket and consistent form.

It would be totally unfair (IMO) to have a situation where marshalls are allowed to enter a gravel trap, retrieve a bike and then assist in restarting it at turn 5 because it is considered safe, but not at turn 12 where it may be deemed unsafe. One must look at it from the fact that if a bike can crash at turn 5 thence it must be dangerous for marshalls lest any following bike also crash.

It needs to be one rule for all corners if they were to apply the rule itself

[TwoStroke Institute]

There was the situation this year at Jerez where at the same corner one rider was prevented from going near his bike and another was assisted to start with 3 pushers.

LiPo batteries are very small and powerful some have 120CCA and weigh 400g, starters best go onto a flywheel.

[tz250w]

If Honda can build a million dollar transmission, I bet they could handle a starter for a bit less.

[ieism]

If Casey Stoner thinks he can do a better job, maybe he can sign up to be a marshall next year. He has some spare time next year right?

[Rusty Bucket USA]

Well, since I'm one of the guys that mentioned batteries (starters) I'll reply to this.

But first, welcome to the forum... from another noob.

I'm about as "elitist" as you can get when it comes to GP. I'm also an old former racer that was racing back when we still did dead engine starts. We got rid of those for a reason, it was inherently dangerous to have people on track pushing motorcycles while others are coming past. A lot of good riders got seriously injured or worse because of that.
[snip]
What we don't need is a gaggle of marshals risking their lives, and the lives of others push starting bikes on the track.

But I don't think we should exclude possible re-starts altogether either.

Sorry tz250w didnt mean to sound like I was calling you out or anything, however as an elitist I would tend to think you'd have a different opinion on this matter seeing as that your from "the bump start era" when Grand Prix was so pure.

I've gotten the chance several times to roadrace twostrokes back in the early ninties and have worked as a technician for around thirteen years in the motorcycle industry at dealers. I've roadraced myself on and off since 89 and have been following Grandprix since 1985 when I first started street riding so I've witnessed the sport evolve (or inmho) disolve.

Not being able to restart the motorcycle and the rules surrounding that predicament should have been thought up a little more indepth when they made the change to the 990's. As easy as "some" 2smokes were to restart,(depending on engine configuration) in the wrong place it was still dangerous. Also comparing stalling on the line and re-entering the race are two completely different animals in my mind for adding a battery.

I think adding a battery for stalling on the line would be a worthy discussion but for re-entering a race as the main reason would be a bad idea. Maybe the rule should be that the rider can re-enter but must wait until all riders have passed.

I guess my confusion and problem lies with a discussion that evolved from Casey's statement which was preposterous to begine with. You said it yourself we don't need Marshals risking life and limb to help any rider re-enter a race. Race Direction felt this was an unsafe area to help a rider, in my mind thats good enough.

[HAWAIIAN MAN]

Sorry could quote your statement because my slide bar keeps moving around as I type it keeps moving towards the top and I have to scroll down again. Anyone know why this is happening when I try to quote a statement?

[HAWAIIAN MAN]

If Casey Stoner thinks he can do a better job, maybe he can sign up to be a marshall next year. He has some spare time next year right?

Awesome!